What Kind Of Guys Look For Affairs Online?
A journalist goes under cover on AshleyMadison.com to figure out why married men cheat.
The first time we met The Ashley Madison Agency was on network television during a commercial break. Amidst jingles for fabric softener and liquid eyeliner, the booming phrase "Life is too short. Have an affair!" jerked us into consciousness. Life is too short? Have an affair? Is this cheating or a second helping of dessert? Cheating Keeps Us Together
We've written about The Ashley Madison Agency—a dating site for itchy married folks—and have always meant to check it out for giggles. After all, what kind of person advertises his/her infidelity online? Are they trying to get caught? Aren't flash in the pan affairs meant for business trips and office parties? (Kidding!) How are you going to explain your online dating profile to your wife or husband? Online Dating: How to Choose the Best Site For You
Regardless, the site boasts over 4 million viewers, which means a.) Ashley Madison is doing something right and b.) a lot of people cheat.
So imagine our excitement when we came across "The Cheaters Club" a piece for vanityfair.com written by single chick, Melanie Berliet, who poses as an unhappily married woman on the prowl.
Melanie begins the piece asking a few big picture questions. First, she wants to know what's going on in the heads of men trolling for mistresses and secondly she'd like to find out if cheating should really be a sin. Are a few sweaty nights behind a spouse's back all that bad? Afterall, we aren't meant to be monogamous are we?
So she meets three men. One is in a somewhat open marriage (he could care less if his wife cheats and believes in "monogamy with adultery"), another isn't married but has a lifelong partner and an agreement to stray, but the third, Jackson, is married to a woman so prudish that he feels an affair is his only chance for sex.
"I don't want to disrupt my life," Jackson told Berliet. "I have three little ones. I want to wake up at home, to cries of 'Daddy!'" After a brief pause, he added, "But my wife, she's so conservative. She doesn't f**k me, you know? Like really f**k me... my life is absolutely perfect, except for the gaping wide hole left by lack of sex."
Berluit digs a bit deeper and finds out that Jackson won't divorce because of the children and isn't interested in therapy. She considers sleeping with him but doesn't follow through. She writes:
Discussion
I was very happy when my parents divorced(i was 9). My brother who was 13 at the time,was hurting about the whole situation. I didn't get into drugs or become sexually active at all,but my brother did the drug thing and drinking. So every situation can't be viewed with statistics either,every situation is different. I was tired of my dad lying,drinking,cheating, being emotionally abusive as well as verbally,and always being gone. I saw him hit her(my mom) a couple of times. So yeah divorce for me was a lifeline to sanity. My brother saw it different. He wasn't close to our dad really,he just didn't know how to handle the seperation of his(our)family. Not everyone fights for money,custody,or visitation. My dad didn't,of course my mom just wanted out she did even take him to court for child support. My dad new where his responsibilites were with us. I remember going to his job and he'd come out and here you go money in hand,no fighting or asking what are you going to do with it...etc. just if you need anything else i'm here. You don't have enough for the light bill here you go,you know. Now he admitted later he messed up and wanted my mom back,but she had moved on and he knew it was over,but he always loved her in his own way. You know the saying you don't know what you've got til it's gone? Well this fit my dad perfectly. My mom wasn't perfect,but she never did to my dad what he did to her. She may have wanted everything to be clean and put up and may have nagged about it,but it wasn't a big deal to us kids. My dad didn't like it,so that was his excuse to leave. His excuse to go drink was for my mom to remind him he didn't take out the trash and finish mowing the yard. The cheating was done when my mom didn't want to sleep with him because he'd call her names and belittle her. She also told him him he'd have to go get check by a doctor before she'd be with him again,after his little affair. He refused of course,so the divorce wasn't far away. My dad knew her family,that my grandfather was a preacher,and how she was raised a certain way. He knew she didn't have sexual skills you know,but he loved her and he loved that about her he said that she wasn't well experienced so they'd learn together. Kids hear more and see more than you think,I did. And my dad before he passed away told me things he said I needed to hear because I had just become a young bride and mom all in the same year. I was 19 when I got pregnant and 20 when I got married and gave birth 3 mths later to my son. I had problems in this marriage not because of lack of sex or the extra things cause I learned and not from porn,but movies and just doing it. We told eachother not like that try it like this. So why did it end? To young..he thought getting out of his mom's house meant partying even having a child and I couldn't take the drinking 3 times a week with his new friends and getting loud and rowdy on top of having our newborn son. To much. Then I was working til he got a job,then when he did as the years went on we'd fight about or he would about money. He'd spend it when we didn't have it on drinking and his friends,but argue if I spent it on eating out twice a month(literally). It lasted with him leaving and coming back for 11yrs. My oldest will tell you how all the fighting and bad episodes messed him up,we went to counseling my son and I only and it's been great since then. He's 18 now. I've been divorced from his father since he was nine. So staying together for the kids isn't always a good idea. I have 5 children from that marriage. The other 3 boys are fine they didn't see or hear a lot,but my daughter was 3 1/2 when her father came around again. She's 10 now and has a better relationship with her father. I never let my kids loose that closeness with him,I did everything I could and still do,for their sakes. We as adults shouldn't be so selfish because once your married and have a family all things change. Not all things are so far gone that some open communication can't remedy,if your foundation is still love. Some issues can be medical,emotional,physcological or yeah bordem. But you won't know if you don't talk about it with eachother. I was uncomfortable talking about certain things but I knew I had to and so did he(my ex). Friends are great for some advice,but the final decision should always come from the two involved. If you've talked and tried everything possible and still nothing,then sit down with your family and tell them the truth...that you both love them,that it's not because of them it's just that you both need to be apart so everyone can be happy. Divorce shouldn't be a solution but a final decision when all else has failed. You all have a lot of great points of view and a lot of it is true for what everyone knows about a certain situation. Keep writing I love reading...Have a great week!!
Only drinking water is a greater need for a man then love making, certainly eating is not. If a woman does not have a physical desire for love making with the man she plans to be her husband, then she should not marry him.
Surprisingly this issue does not seem paramount in the views of sophisticated women, as described in “I'd Rather Eat Chocolate: Learning to Love My Low Libido” by Joan Sewell ISBN 0767922670. In the book the topic of male libido is treated as an inconvenient joke, something a wife must deal with
Most men, normal men do not want to cheat on their wives and children. For a man the affair or purchasing prostitution (i.e. being exploited) is the only choice when wife has little or no desire for love making, deeper analysis is not necessary. How many women are honestly introspective on how they feel about love making and their husband’s needs?
What is the root cause of a normal man having an affair, the wife’s libido.
CSD
You are right, the paradox here is when a man lets his wife know that he is not getting enough, or it lacks passion or intimacy or whatever. He waits, tries nothing really changes.. then when a man goes and finds it somewhere else he's the bad guy. Somehow this once unimportant issue to the wife (satisying sex) is now so important she wants a divorce...
A few questions come up for me:
The first is what do you mean by enough sex or passionate enough sex? Most people have sympathy for a guy who hasn't had sex for three years or even six months. It gets trickier if you are having sex, you just don't think it's enough or the right kind.
Almost all relationships are going to have one person who wants more sex than the other. They will often want different thing in bed. I don' t think anyone has the right to say, well, you want sex twice a week and I want it every day, so I'll have sex with someone else five days a week. Or you want intercourse and I want anal sex, so once a week I'll got out for anal sex.
Also, in terms of passionate enough sex, you can't tell someone to be more passionate. You have to figure out why they don't feel passionate first.
Do you really want your wife to have sex with you when she doesn't want to? See the article from FirstWives on the woman who felt like a piece of meat.
http://www.yourtango.com/200934365/how-i-became-just-piece-meat
What does the wife say? Yes, a husband can tell his wife he wants more and try and wait, but why isn't she doing what he wants? And why does she say that she doesn't feel passionate?
Bull that's all I can say to that tripe. My husband didn't have any lack of marital sex as I am very adventurous and willing to try about anything, he still felt the need to cheat. This is not a cut and dried topic with easy answers and it really gets old hearing that it's all the little "sexually repressed" woman's fault. Cheaters cheat, it's what they do...they can decide not to cheat but they don't really need a reason to continue. Only openness in the relationship will stop the cheating or nulify it.
Oh and another thing....cheaters will say whatev er they have to to make a "connection". They don't necessarily need to be having any problems in their marriages nor do they need to be male.
Bull is what I say to your comment. "Cheaters cheat thats what they do", not true.
Married friends of mine who were posted to Saudi Arabia for a year, they had affairs with female colleagues (and their wives back home did too). Then when they went home they went back to their marriages and they are still married 15 years later.
They were not born cheats, it was the situation, and I think this word
cheaters is insulting. As for your situation it could be your husband was never the type to settle down with one woman... its hard to put a finger on it...and it is certainly not as simple as Cheaters cheat
If you're lying and breaking promises, you're cheating. The behavior isn't pretty.
Some people won't cheat unless they're really tempted by a situation like a long distance relationship. Others keep cheating even though they have plenty of sex at home.
There are many different kinds of cheating and many different motives for cheating, just as not all stealing is the same. The bottom line is that the cheater is the one who decides to cheat. He or she is responsible for their own behavior and should not try to blame someone else.
Its a rare thing for me to meet a woman who isn't introspective. Many are too introspective, reading into every little thing instead of hearing the problem for what it is. You say that deeper analysis isn't needed for when a wife has a low libido, but you don't acknowledge any need of a husband to try and understand where his wife is coming from with this, why her libido is low, why she just isn't so interested in sex.
Its not a clear, cut and dry situation, and trying to understand another person's point of view is not ceding to their needs and whims. Your wife is your partner for life, at least that is what you signed up for. Most women spend more time understanding what is happening in their husband's lives, or trying to, than husbands do for their wives. By all of these statements in support of cheating on your spouse you are also saying that it is perfectly acceptable for a wife to cheat if her husband has E.D. or a low libido as well, that she has no need or reason to understand why or try to come up with some sort of solution to the problem.
True, most spouses don't want to cheat. But justifying it for any reason still doesn't work.
The men in the article aren't cheating because their wives have no desire for them. One guy says he's looking for variety. One husband says he wants a woman who comes more easily/quickly than his wife.
The third husband, Jackson, is confusing. He and his wife clearly have troubles in their sex life, but from what he says, it sounds like he is part of the problem. Cheating is just a way for him to avoid working on their problems.
Sewell deals with her low libido by joking about it. I find her feelings about sex a little baffling, but she has some interesting insights. She argues that if one partner has a lower sex drive than the other, why should the low sex drive person have to have sex? Why not expect the high sex drive person to ask for less? She and her husband come up with their own version of a compromise in the end. (She acts sexy for him and performs fellatio.)
I agree that most men do not want to cheat on their wives. However, I think that some men cheat even though their wives are having sex with them. When a marriage has sexual problems, I think both partners need to be introspective and take responsibility for why there are problems. People's libidos are complicated things and what a partner does contributes to them. Rather than cheat, people should face their problems together.
Good lord, the original article is so full of holes and lacking in objectivity that its ridiculous. Of Berliet's four male examples, one states that their is an agreement between him and his wife that extra-marital affairs are acceptable (no confirming without hearing it from the wife), one never outright says such a thing, just that his having an affair is not having any impact on his marriage, one knows full well that if his wife were to find out it would be the end of his marriage, and the last one was in an open relationship because he loves his partner but feels like a loser because its hard to get her to orgasm.
These four guys are supposed to be the solid foundation for building an argument about extra-marital affairs being GOOD for a marriage? Spencer never admits up front he is married, only after they have slept together. True, she didn't meet Spencer on the web site, but lets call it the Control in her little pseudo-experiment. Berliet bissfully ignored the bright and shiny wedding band on Spencer's finger before, during, and after the intial date that led to them having sex in his office...not an apartment, but his office. Sure, kinda kinky fun for a first time around, but its already an automatic response for me to see if a woman has a wedding ring on or not. But we'll move past this to the simple fact that he never implied that he had his wife's consent for this, simply that he has a great marriage but he just doesn't believe in monogamy.
Moving on to the site, we get Thomas, who does state its a happy marriage and that he and his wife have some "unspoken" agreement that its perfectly acceptable for them to sleep with other people. So, no confirmation from the wife on this, only trusting his word that its so. Her dalliance with him is only on-line, but within that the context of how they approached each other it had an odor of a budding romance. So, this wasn't just contacting someone to get naked with, it was about the emotional excitement and nuances that stem from discovering someone new, and they neve even had sex.
Then we get the much debated about Jackson, who appears to be iconic to some for his stoic strength and determination in choosing to stay married to his frigid wife because of his 3 children. This man, if you read the article, has done nothing to help his marriage or to work things out with his wife. Moreover, he goes to great lengths to hide his use of the website from paying for it with money orders to purchasing another phone for talking with Berliet. His whole demeanor in regards to how he conducts himself is almost on the verge of frantic self-loathing, even describing the web site itself as "filthy cheaters site", showing that he even considers what he is attempting to do as wrong. Jackson seeks an extra-marital affair not for sex, but as a validation of himself. He seeks out fantasy fulfillment more than just simply satisfying his sexual urges. When asked if he is happy with his marriage, he never directly answers the question. He gives reasons for being unhappy, but he never directly says "I'm not happy with my marriage." At one point, after hearing Berliet's made up story of how her marriage isn't bad, Jackson tells her "it only gets worse from there. My marriage started going downhill from day one." Then just seconds later he tells her is marriage is perfect except for a lack of sex. Berliet even asks him, if its just for sex, then why not get a prostitute? Jackson's reply of never because "I need intimacy" shows he has more than just a need for sex, he needs some sort of emotional fulfillment that he isn't getting either. How about therapy? The man doesn't even answer. He makes it pretty obvious that he has done nothing to try and make the situation better. He says nothing about if the wife has tried to make anything better. He actually, literally shrugs off the question, conclusion of which would be either he never brought up marriage counseling or he denied a need for it. Either way, he isn't speaking, which is probably par for the course of his marriage and possibly why the wife has become frigid.
Then there is Thomas, who is an out and out loser. He is caught in basically 2 lies within 5 minutes of the start of the date. First, that his picture wasn't in any way current, most likely showing him at a much younger age, and then his listed profession on the site, which in reality wasn't exactly what he did. May have been in the field of medicine, but his lie as to what he actually practices is telling. Added to this, his arrogance and cockiness stand out like red flags as to the reason for his being on the site. Thomas isn't married. He is in a committed, open relationship, one that has strict rules as to how both he and his partner conduct themselves in relationships outside of their own which they consider the primary one. Thomas' big reason for this is because he feels like a loser because his gal his extremely hard to bring to orgasm. In truth, because of his attitude, it seems pretty obvious that she could mark out all the appropriate places to touch, program it into a gps system, provide step by step written instructions with video demonstrations on how to play with those erogenous zones, and Thomas would still miss the point because he believes it all has to do with her and has an attitude of being pro at pleasing women. Aside from the initial lies and the inability to listen to a partner or accept her instructions in the art of pleasing her, if his story is legit then there really is no affair happening, no cheating going on as their is openly mutual acceptance of what they want and it has been completely discussed and agreed upon.
I gotta admit, my skin crawled with the whole line, from Spencer, in regards to monogamy being a personal choice and should not be forced on others...I have no issues with the poly-ams out there. They are honest and open about what they want in a relationship and with however many partners it takes to make that vision work. I can respect that decison because there is no hiding the truth or fudging facts. Its out in the open.
However, when you've entered into a marriage where both partners are of a mind that this is about monogamy then you're not being honest with your spouse about going behind their backs for nookie...its cheating and it is wrong. It is no longer a decision that really only affects yourself. Its a decision that affects the person you married as well. if you have children it affects them as well. There is no rationalizing it. You just made an emotionally based decision to cheat on your wife because you know that to tell her the truth would end your marriage, and you aren't ready to let go of that security.
Consenting adults...that phrase is inclusive of married couples. You can't give consent when you aren't informed.
I agree with what you're saying, except for one thing. It's not clear to me that Jackson's wife is frigid.
One of the things that irritates me about Jackson is that he complains that they're not having sex, then talks about how his wife does it wrong. From what he says it is clear that she has tried to move during intercourse and has tried oral sex. So she is at least willing to try things. I find myself wondering if he reacted rudely to her efforts and turned her off. And I always wonder whens someone complains about their partner if they are willing to do the things their partner wants.
I wonder about these partners as well...why should something new feel like an explosive amazing time the first time out? When we first started walking we fell almost every step! It takes time to perfect a sexual technique and criticism doesn't make it any more fun to practice...imagine if we had recieved negative enforcement when we were learning to walk?
Sorry about that, you're right. His statements and the way he handles himself during the whole event still show his inability to communicate his wants and needs. At one point he even shows some signs of low self-esteem, probably one of those things that keeps him from telling his wife how he likes to play in the sack as well as his fantasies.
The various statistics available on infidelity produce very different numbers that range from about 20% to 75% cheaters, according to, mostly 3 factors:
- The way the survey respondents are recruited,
- The definition of infidelity,
- The specific question asked (lifetime? Current marriage/relationship?).
In other words it is basically impossible to say how many people “cheat” (actually we can’t even agree on the definition of “What’s cheating”) and, worse, we don’t even know if it’s a majority or a minority.
As far as I’m concerned, I’m inclined to think that cheaters are the majority, but that is if we define cheating as : “Secretly doing something that you don’t want your spouse to know you’re doing”.
It's a little inconsistent but I have different definitions of cheating. I would not want my partner to have phone sex with someone else and so I call it cheating. On the other hand, if my partner had phone sex with someone I would not actually consider it adultery or infidelity.
I'm not sure how to explain it, but I think there are things we don't want our partner to do that aren't really the ultimate betrayal.
Anyhow, for me when you're defining infidelity to figure out how many people cheat it makes sense to stick to the more limited definitions that are based on actually having sex.
From what I can tell, the surveys that find the lower percentages of cheaters are the ones that rely on proven methods for statistical sampling. I trust them more.
That works as a pretty broad, valid, and generic definition for me. It sets up a certain boundary between two people initially and then leaves it up to the two in question to sit down and flesh it out in terms of what they personally see as cheating.
Wow, the author read one article and wrote an article about reading that article: the epitome of lazy writing. I hope that education isn't going to total waste, good lord. But yeah, I'm sure this is one to be proud of and stick in with the samples of your best work to send to potential future emplyers, try and see how that works out. Kudos.
Hmm...maybe the important question is why do people cheat in general? The perception is that the male cheats more often but that might be because of the social consequences related to finding out a male cheats vs a female are different. It is social suicide for a female but can be "cool" in some male circles.
I think the over emphasis on sex is an issue. Physically pleasing sex will diminish over time because built into that is a natural barrier. It is the SAME person over and over again. Unless they learn to do a different type of back flip every week they will become a bore. If there is no emotional connection sex won't fix that.
Also people spend time creating their ideal man or ideal women based on some abstract fantasy or reality. They do this and miss the person that is actually right for them. So sex is bore, the person is not right for you and then.............you do the unthinkable....you look for someone else?
Your point about emotional connectivity is key here.. its not so much that it gets boring as sex becomes a part of life like brushing your teeth. Like most things in life it requires work, imagination and a willingness to communicate. The strains of parenthood leave couples often too tired or emotionally exhausted, but if there is a desire to keep that emotional connection alive it can still work.... helps if there are grandparent around to get some "alone" time
At the end of the article, she writes: "maybe I'm jaded." Er, love, "naive" is the word you're looking for.......
What most people seem to missing here is that there is difference between Jackson the father and Jackson the lover. Presumably when he married he and his wife were lovers, over time they became parents. Many men will tell you while they continued to be parent and lover their wife became just parent, just Mom. It is almost like having children ended romance. Advice is get counseling, but the only way that will work is for the wife to rediscover the lover in her, and maybe biologically, maybe emotionally, maybe any number of reasons that cannot happen. What is a man to do, masturbate in the shower for years, the only incentive, better word threat a man can make is to leave, to destroy her security and that of the children. Is that what all these self righteous commentatators are saying. I think Jackson has taken the honorable path, he has respected his wife's lack of interest in sex (if she was frustrated or looking for sex, she would find someone else or complain to her husband), put his children first.
As to those who bring in religious notes like all religions frown on this. It is worth remembering these religions were created when people lived in small towns, where everyone knew each other, not in an LA, Chicago or New York, where people by fact of sheer numbers are alienated from others. If a man has an affair in New York no-one will know, if he had one in a small town everyone would know. One of the problems with religion today is that it was designed for other times, when people were more tribal, and lived a more rural life. One of the reasons people have turned away from religion is that it does not reflect the realistic moral decision required in this urban, highly populated world. So cut the cheating moralistic stuff, Jackson is a sensitive, honorable man doing his best in a bad situation, and trying to keep harmony in his family's life and do the best for his children.
If you read the article, Jackson isn't saying he and his wife had a great sex life and then it petered out when they had kids. He's saying that she doesn't do things right (she doesn't thrust properly and she uses her teeth) and that she is conservative (she believes porn is cheating). He must have known her values before he married her. If he didn't know what she was like in bed, it was because they weren't having sex before marriage.
Jackson sounds to me like a religious hypocrite. He wants to cheat with the journalist because her skin is "the color of purity." He should take the lead in his marriage and work on his problems instead of running away from them. He should respect his wife's inexperience and inhibitions and help her.
I would argue that husbands who find they are no longer having sex after they have kids should also face their problems instead of running away from them. It is extremely unlikely that the wife is happy in a loveless marriage. She, too, may cheat. She may decide to divorce the guy. You have to work on the problem.
If it's worth staying together for the kids, it's worth trying to fix the marriage.
You make good points in a rational way, but ultimately it comes down to two people wanting the same thing, having the same outlook. Lets take an example, lets say they go for a walk on the beach, he wants to go skinny dipping, she's to shy says no, then he says
lets go away for a weekend to a cabin, and she says sounds great, but then its the night her favorite program in on. Why in all these made up examples has the guy to do the nice thing, why isn't she looked down for not wanting to be fun and silly and go skinny dipping, why should he have to let her watch her show... the point I'm making is he wants passion romance and a little wildness, and if she really cares about her marriage why doesn't she supply it, she is grown up, why doesn't she go online and look at those porn sites and spark some imagination... why does the guy have to face a passionless marriage and help her be who she is not...
I think people should figure out if they have the same outlook before they get married. Jackson's wife sounds like she would never have gone skinny dipping or look at porn and anyone who knew her would know that. He can't get mad at her now for being what he chose in a wife.
Why is it Jackson's responsibility to help her?
1) He talks about his wife doing things like using her teeth during fellatio. That is the kind of thing anyone will stop doing if you nicely tell them you don't like it.
2) He is unhappy and at the point of cheating on his wife. He needs to do something else.
3) The way I see it, in marriage it is both people's responsibility to do something when there is a problem. If your partner isn't doing anything, it's your responsibility. You can't wait for them to do something. You can't blame them. Someone has to step up and think about the marriage, not themselves.
Some of my comments have to do with Jackson in particular. I don't think a sexless marriage is good for anyone. But I think we have to each take responsibility for trying to work on our marriage, not blame our partner for not doing what we want.
People change, I don't think the same way I did 15 years ago, maybe when they got married they had similar outlooks, but have since diverged. It is not reasonable to expect two people be the same as the day they married. Life changes them.
I agree, people change over time. I don't think anyone here will argue that point, but the act of being married is one of constant involvement with someone you deemed worthy of spending the rest of your life with, and vice versa. Entering into a marriage believing that nothing will change about the person you are getting married to is naive and immature. While a divergence in outlooks have brought some marriages to an end it doesn't have to be devastating or involve extra-marital affairs.
You are right, people change. Sometimes a partner gets left behind. It still doesn't give anyone the right to break their vows. If the change is such that marriage between the two just won't work out then they should get divorced. But that should be coming after some attempt at understand the problem and working to correct it, or fix it. Its virtually never a matter of one spouse needing to do the work. In relationships, nearly all problems stem from both people, and require action from both to bring about resolution.
A change in personal views does not naturally preclude a problem in a relationship either. That is the act of living...continued change. Some people choose to find partners who they know they can work through life's situations with, including those that they go through. That is the act of discovering and finding a similar outlook on life and love.
It all comes down to feelings, I have a very good female friend who just got divorced about a year ago, her husband left her for another woman. She told me recently that when her new lover says the exact same compliments here husband made it melts her heart, when her husband said it it had no effect. same words, different response. It comes down to feelings. If a wife no longer feels attracted to her husband all the talk wont change anything, if she is feeling bad about herself all the encouragement, sweet words and suggestions will have little effect, and if she is plain uninterested it is annoying. There was a book that recently came out reviewed in Atlantic magazine, I forget the title, but it was about marriages and society in post war britain. One of the constant themes the writer found in interviewing these women was that the wives were grateful their husbands went down the pub, so they would not be "bothered" by them. Meaning they would not be wanting sex. It all comes down to feelings.. so where does that leave the rest of the marriage, the kids etc which maybe harmonius, do you throw it all away because one partner cannot reignite those feelings. hardly, this guy Jackson did the right thing. His wife needs to find someone who lights her fire.
I suspect that the words have a different effect for two reasons:
1) She was mad at her husband about other things and they weren't working out their fights, just staying mad.
2) It's always nice to hear compliments from someone new. it makes them seem more real.
Obviously it would have been better if they'd worked out their differences so they could enjoy the good things and if they'd been able to appreciate being loved by someone who's known you a long time.
So if I get your last sentence right, Jackson's wife should go out and have an affair as well?
As far as the rest of the marriage being harmonius, I really don't believe that. They are still modeling an emotionally unhealthy marriage for their children, which in a way tells the kids that you'll have to settle with someone to have a family with instead of finding someone you can be completely happy with, and that you can cheat on your spouse without fear of consequence or concern for your actions possibly hurting your spouse who is already hurting in some way, which is being shown by their lack of desire for sex or other romantic stimulation.
Now, your female friend, did she say why those compliments from her husband did nothing for her? Did she say anything about why she no longer felt the same for her husband as she did when they first married?
Yes, feelings change, but its not like they run willy-nilly of their own accord. Aside from those people who have definite medical problems that cause them to swing back and forth like a pendulum, for the rest of us our change in feelings are dependent on outside stimuli and how we choose to interact with that stimuli.
In other words, what did or didn't her husband do to cause her to lose interest? What did or didn't she do about it? Its not a one sided argument because marriages aren't about one person. Both partners have a hand in it, and its more than just a simple change in feelings or a lack of putting out. The whole context, the total story, helps to define where a marriage went right or wrong, where a couple did all they could or didn't really do much of anything at all.
However, that act of having an affair is purely selfish and irresponsible. Just because men have, for the most part, an easy time compartmentalizing sex so that it is without emotion doesn't give us the right to do so and betray trust or marriage vows. Its that mindset, the selfishness of it, that usually signals that the husband's main concern throughout the marriage has been for his own well being and not the well being of the both of them as a couple.
if you don't want to believe that well balanced kids can come from a marriage where one parent or both have decided that on the issue of sex it is not working, that is your opinion. But there is no doubt that divorce is far far more determental to children, it leads to greater drug use, higher promiscuity and host of other issues. That is documented. As for my friend the situation cannot be analysed, because you are dealing with feelings, suggestions can be made, things tried, but its not something that can be worked out like a maths equation. This why over 100 years after the introduction of psychology , 90% of all therapy for psychlogical problems is drugs, if we could talk it away, we wouldnt need the drugs. This idea that you can talk through something and change stuff, change feelings is just bunk. The feelings determine the receptiveness.
some of your other unqualified statements like having an affair is selfish and irresponsible I completely disagree with. First if the man is finding the satisfaction elsewhere he has no need for bad feelings to his wife, and she is not being pressured to do something she maybe not interested in.
You have a very rigid idea of what makes a marriage work.... its either this or nothing, not true, they are your prejudices
Speaking as a child that from parents that decided to fake it and hide my dad's infidelity I want to tell you that your claims are erroneous. Many of my siblings struggle with alcohol and trust issues and because of the examples my parents set have made some questionable matches that have ultimately destroyed trust in our whole family. Your divorce argument is erroneous at best.
And to be honest couples living some sort of sham marriage hurts marriage more than divorce. Divorce isn't the problem, its the examples and the pain caused by lying and cheating parents. And that happens without divorce and when it does the betrayal is even more poignant.
People who try to convince themselves that lying is better are just trying to justify their own decisions. The truth is always the better option, no matter the pain it causes.
Your last sentence is great: "The truth is always the better option, no matter the pain it causes."
However, in your example the problem was not that your parents didn't divorce but that they tried to hide the ugly truth to the kids while, apparently they hadn't sorted out the mutual bad feelings.
The problem with divorce is that it's ugly, most of the times. It's a conflictual situation by essence and what reflection777 is referring to is the case when the kids watch their parents tearing each other apart for financial stuff, children custody and all that stuff, not exactly a great example. There's also those cases where the siblings get conflictual to one another because they take opposite sides in the parents conflict. This obviously adds to the initial trauma of the infidelity of one of the parents.
To start, understand that I'm not attacking you. While I may not agree with your views it doesn't mean that I have any level of disrespect for you.
In terms of a marriage where both partners recognize that they are no longer sexually compatible and have both agreed to seek out sexual fulfillment elsewhere but are otherwise happy to remain married, that is an informed decision that both have agreed to. This article is not stating that is the case. I believe that open marriages have just as good a chance at raising well balanced children as monogamous marriages.
The article is stating that these are marriages where the man, which could just as easily be the woman, cheats on their spouse. Their is no open discussion, no consent, no agreement on the situation. It is one person selfishly following their own desires and who, because of his or her feelings, does not speak with their partner about it and does so without their knowledge or consent. Basically, they've broken their vows, or their promise, to the other person.
In these terms, a child can be raised that is able to function acceptably in society, but that doesn't equate to the child being raised as a well balanced child.
The argument of pharmaceutical psychology isn't very sound either. While it is true that there has been more research done to show that emotional problems that were once thought to simply be problems with the perceptions of one individual and are now being seen as actual physiological problems, medication has done wonders. This form of therapy still involves a good deal of talking to understand where the problems come from and how to work through them. At the same time, there are a good deal of psychiatrists who have become little more than salesmen for pharmaceutical companies, believing in the all mighty pill before even attempting to help the patient without prescribing medication. Then there are those who don't really help their patients but keep them strung along for years for job security. Just as there are mechanics that you can and cannot trust, so it is with all other professions.
Perhaps our definitions of a well balanced child, and adult, are also different. For me, a well balanced child is taught the skills needed to learn how to find their own balance between their emotional logic and their rational logic, whereupon as adults they understand that the two are not independent but coexist. This isn't naivette or fairy tale thinking either as I've met many a person who has struggled with their own issues, sometimes with the help of a good therapist, and has learned how the one influences the other within themselves and can make better decisions.
As for the marriage aspect, the model of married life that you are proposing, where it should be acceptable for either spouse to do as they wish regardless of how it affects their spouse, pretty much goes against every ideal of what marriage is about. As I stated earlier, an open marriage is a totally different concept than what is being addressed in the article. In the model you proposing as acceptable, it teaches a child that it is acceptable to lie, to break your promises, and to be only concerned with themselves and their needs. The proposed ideal of marriage, one rooted in reality, is also not fantasy. It involves understanding, communication, trust, compromise, and a pursued desire by both partners to share in each other's lives, needs, and desires. Such marriages exist, and these marriages work based on the understanding of both partners brought about by clear and open communication.
Concerning how divorces have raised levels of promiscuity, drug use, and other issues, I'd like to see that documentation. As can also be seen, marriages such as those you describe as being acceptable have also resulted in children being raised with a host of issues that causes them to seek comfort and self-identity in promiscuity, drug abuse, alcoholism, and a host of other mechanisms that are used to get by, but never actually deal with the problem. My other concern is in where these statistics were obtained. Were they in social environments that already have a high level of adolecent sexuality, substance abuse, or anything else of that like? Were the parents of these children good role models of what an emotionally and logically balanced person looks like? Or were these parents who were riddled with their own coping mechanisms that they did not have the strength or knowledge to overcome and were passing on these traits to their children?
I don't disagree that if a man is having an affair then it naturally means he doesn't care about his wife to some degree, but it is still a one sided view. It does not take into account how his wife who he has chosen as a lifelong partner feels about it. It doesn't address the issue of what has brought about her change in feeling towards him or towards sex. In no way is she included in that process until he actually tells her that he is planning on having an affair because she is no longer sexually interested in him. This is not a conversation that has to go the route of "I'm going to sleep with someone else if you don't start sleeping with me." As you said, there is no sense in attempting to persuade someone into doing something that they have no desire to do. While a man will cheat on his wife and will still care about his wife it doesn't show that he respects his wife or his marriage. If he discusses this desired course of action, and she is accepting of it, then that is a mutual decision, and fair game.
I understand that my personal model of what I want my married life to be, which is the same way I conduct myself in all romantic relationships, may not be the same way everyone envisions their married life. However, that does not exclude the need for open and honest communication between both partners in a marriage as being universally understood. Its selfish and irresponsible when a partner makes a decision of this magnitude with little to no regard for how their partner will feel about it. It is in part fear based because the partner does not wish to risk dissolving the marriage for whatever form of need or security that they recieve from it while they do something that they know would result in a divorce. Their is nothing noble about that. Jackson won't have this conversation with his wife about choosing to get his sexual fulfillment elsewhere most likely because he knows it will result in his wife leaving him.
How does that arrangement teach a child what it means to respect and love another person? How does that show them what a healthy marriage is, or what it really means to be a healthy and well balanced individual? To think that the children won't find out is naive. They will eventually find out, and it will lead to a host of other problems.
Yes, there is no perfect marriage, just as their is no perfect balance. However, the idea that divorce alone is responsible for the growing problems with promiscuity, substance abuse, and other issues is fallible. Once again, it doesn't look at the root cause but the symptom.
Happy, healthy marriages where neither partner is seeking emotional or sexual fulfillment outside of the marriage are brought about by continued communication, understanding, trust, and the desire for the better welfare of each partner. It involves bouts of fighting, of frustration, of issues being brought up and dealt with. If needed then counseling and pharmaceutical measures are brought into play. They take a lot of work, a lot of responsibility, and a willingness to look past your own needs. Too much time spent caring for the other persons needs without having your own met is not the ideal, nor is too much time seeing that your needs are met before your partner's. None of that teaches a child what it means to respect and honor your spouse, or even another person in a simple relationship.
I won't say that a healthy, well balance child has never come from an adulterous marriage, but the odds are phenominally stacked against it.
Jackson stated that they are not interest in therapy, that they considered that option. The problem here is that perhaps they are too close to their children, thus not able to break away to kindle their romance.
I can relate to Jackson's problem. However, cheating on our spouse will present more problems instead of solving, it emphasis on an "OUT" option, making Jackson less clear on making the right decision.
I want to hear more from woman point of view, perhaps we can all learn.
Sadly, Jackson actually never said anything when he was asked if they tried therapy. All he did was shrug his shoulders. It was kind of like how evasive he was when Berliet asked him if he was happy with his marriage and he never gave her a definite yes or no.
Sunnyparadise
Good point with the OUT option, but lets look at a little history here. It used to be when people made religion important in their lives, that there was something called Marital Duty. What this meant was a woman could not deny her husband sex. The reason was simple it would result in their husbands looking elsewhere. That concept went out with the feminist movement, and it is a good thing. It became voluntary, but that does not negate the consequences of denying or holding back what ever you want to call it.
The same concern that if he doesn't get it from me he will seek it elsewhere has not changed. I have spoke to too many husbands who mention making love to their wife is "corpse sex", or that show the same enthusiasm as when they go to the dentist. Biologically I believe some women lose interest in sex, their men do not.
Why is it that a guy is wrong for looking for something his wife does not want to do or give, why does she break up the marriage causing friction and unhappiness for something that she is unwilling to change.. why hasn't she voluntarily met her "marital duty"
I posted this only because of all the religious references being made on duties and what not...This is what everyone has forgotten it's suppose to be like....and everyone is different yes,but this should never change.
Message From God To Women
When I created the heavens and the earth. I spoke them into being. When I created man, I formed him and breathed life into his nostrils. But you, woman, I fashioned after I breathed the breath of life into man because your nostrils are too delicate. I allowed a deep sleep to come over him so I could patiently and perfectly fashion you. Man was put to sleep so that he could not interfere with the creativity. From one bone I fashioned you. I chose the bone that protects man's life. I chose the rib, which protects his heart and lungs and supports him, as you are meant to do. Around this one bone I shaped you. I modeled you. I created you perfectly and beautifully. Your characteristics are as the rib, strong yet delicate and fragile. You provide protection for the most delicate organ in man, his heart. His heart is the center of his being; his lungs hold the breath of life. The rib cage will allow itself to be broken before it will allow damage to the heart. Support man as the rib cage supports the body. You were not taken from his feet, to be under him, nor were you taken from his head, to be above him. You were taken from his side, to stand beside him and be held close to his side. You are my perfect angel. You are my beautiful little girl. You have grown up to be a splendid woman of excellence, and my eyes fill when I see the virtue in your heart. Your eyes--don't change them. Your lips--how lovely when they part in prayer. Your nose so perfect in form, your hands so gentle to touch. I've caressed your face in your deepest sleep; I've held your heart close to mine. Of all that lives and breathes, you are the most like me. Adam walked with me in the cool of the day and yet he was lonely. He could not see me or touch me. He could only feel me. So everything I wanted Adam to share and experience with me, I fashioned in you: my holiness, my strength, my purity, my love, my protection and support. You are special because you are the extension of me. Man represents my image--woman, my emotions. Together, you represent the totality of God. So man--treat woman well. Love her, respect her, for she is fragile. In hurting her, you hurt me. What you do to her, you do to me. In crushing her, you only damage your own heart, the heart of your Father and the heart of her Father. Woman, support man. In humility, show him the power of emotion I have given you. In gentle quietness show your strength. In love, show him that you are the rib that protects his inner self.
The main biological reason women lose interest in sex is menopause, and by the time that happens, the kids are usually grown and the man is less randy. From what I hear, there are still plenty of women who are interested in sex after menopause too.
There are so many reasons a woman could lose interest in sex it's impossible to know without talking to the individual woman. Maybe she is angry at her husband. Maybe she is physically tired. Maybe she is depressed or anxious. Maybe the sex isn't that good. Maybe she doesn't feel close or intimate with her husband. Maybe she has a physical problem. Maybe she needs to get exercise or take vitamins. Maybe she is just very busy and has gotten into a bad habit of forgetting about sex. Maybe the man has gotten lazy about romance and foreplay.
Rather than assume their wife is just not interested because she's a woman, husbands should talk to their wives and work on the problem. Don't waste time getting mad that the wife hasn't done what you think she should. Instead, face the problem with her.
Just for curiosity's sake, maybe you should also try talking with their wives to get the whole picture.
I've known women at a wide variety of ages, and not one of them had lost any interest in sex due to advanced years. Loss of sexual appetite stems from interpersonal issues.
Its not about men "having" to do the things their wives want over what they want either. Example, per your examples above to Bookmama, the man who wants to go skinny dipping and the wife who doesn't. I've been in this situation actually, and I left her on the beach and went skinny dipping. Had a blast too. While she stayed on the beach, she enjoyed seeing me have fun. It was good times all around, and because I've taken the time to know her I fully understand why she just can't bring herself to go skinny dipping. As for the other one, the trip she agrees to then remembers her favorite show is on, there are ways of getting around that as well.
I'm not trying to pick at you, but the point is relationships are about give and take, but they are also about understanding who your other half is and being supportive, caring, and nurturing of that INDIVIDUAL. As BookMama is saying, Jackson, as well as so many other husbands that have the same mindset, should know how is wife is, should know of her lack of experience, and he has done nothing but bemoan his own choices instead of taking an active role with her.
Its my honest belief that in the majority of marriages where a husband cheats because his wife is no longer his lover, just the mother of his child, the husband has not really done anything to change the situation. I'm not talking about trying to get her in bed, and trying to take her out occasionally or anything like that. Its more that he isn't providing her with support in taking care of the child. Yes, he is paying for the roof over their head, the clothes on their backs, the food in their stomachs, but that isn't the sum total of a husband's and father's duties. Wives need support too. They need time to themselves, not looking over the baby, they need time to get their energy back, time to feel sexy and not feel like a mom.
But none of this happens if someone doesn't talk and someone else doesn't listen. However, in Jackson's case, I don't find it honorable at all that he is staying in the marriage for the kids and not making any attempt to fix the problems. Basically, he will be raising his children in a loveless house, setting up a broken or heavily damaged marriage as the model for his children to base their lives on. That isn't doing what is best for them. That is just not owning up to the fact that he doesn't feel anything for his wife anymore, if he ever really did, and that he is too chicken to end the marriage before hurting her even more.
In your entire commentary you never mention once about the wife reaching out to fix things.
"Its my honest belief that in the majority of marriages where a husband cheats because his wife is no longer his lover, just the mother of his child, the husband has not really done anything to change the situation".
Are you saying that a woman, a more intuitive creature than a man in general, does not sense his unhappiness or need. Or are you saying she does, but she has no responsibility to fix it. Personally, I believe that women that do start to withdraw do so because they have either a) lost interest in their husbands or b) have self esteem problems that makes them less confident or c) because biologically they lose interest in sex. All the talking in the world will not change a thing. People in general are emotional irrational creatures that use reason to justify their behavior. The sexual impulse/relationships is about feelings first, the communication comes later. No feelings no communication
True, I didn't. This is also where part of the disconnect comes from. As you have put it, "Are you saying that a woman, a more intuitive creature than a man in general, does not sense his unhappiness or need."
Why is the husband unable to do the same? As you've spoken to so many men to hear their sides I've also spoken to women and heard their sides where they've reached out to their husband, made many attempts, and nothing came of it.
In your list of points for why women withdraw ask yourself a) why did they lose interest in their husbands? From your argument thus far one could conclude that a woman's duty is to serve the needs of her husband. They do not really include anything about a husband being concerned for his wife's emotional welfare.
b) Why do they have these self esteem problems? Sure, numerous answers to that one. They may have been present before the two got married, in which case they are usually very present and the husband should have known and understood that it was her baggage he was accepting into his life. Perhaps her loss of self esteem comes from an emotionally abusive spouse, perhaps it just comes from a spouse who is just never really "there" when he is home. Self-esteem issues aren't brought about by a personal choice. Often they are products of child hood issues and it takes help and strong personal choices to overcome them. I've yet to meet a woman who had considerable low self-esteem that didn't show it in some way while never mentioning it, but if you aren't actively learning about your partner then you'll probably over look it.
c) I really don't see any merit to this argument. I've yet to meet a woman who is sexually active and desired LESS sex because her hormones have no longer kept her passionate. If you have some documented proof of this, some scientific data, that would be great to see, but every woman I've known and been close enough to have frank discussions with has bemoaned the LACK of sex in their lives. They don't get enough. The ones who have less desire for sex, if any desire at all, are usually either dealing with clinical depression or involved in really bad relationships.
In all of this, it is not the responsibility of one partner, or one sex, to be mindful, supportive, and nurturing of the other. Its the responsibility of both partners. The arguement of people being emotional irrational creatures who use reason to justify behavior is counter productive. How can a person rationalize something that is irrational? Emotional health is extremely important in all aspects of life, however, most people try to rationalize their excuses for not taking better care of themselves emotionally or helping out their partners. Emotional well being is so important in a marriage that the act of trying to rationalize the poor emotional state of your spouse as something having only to do with them is copping out on how you contribute to that, and that is regardless of what sex you are.
Your last part completely loses me though. Sexual impulse/relationships being about feelings first, then communication later; no feelings no communication? Sure attraction on some level begins a relationship. Communication (getting to know the person, spending time with them, dating them) works to strengthen the attraction. Lack of communication about issues, whether from an inability to discuss it or to listen to the problem begets a weakening or loss of feelings. Over time it develops into stagnation and ultimately a seperation. No where in that do you talk abou the responsibility of both partners to maintain the relationship, to have open discussions that work towards solving problems.
Perhaps its just me, but I've learned to reign in my initial infatuation with someone to get to know them better first before jumping into marriage or any other arrangement. Its not a rationalization, but an understanding of how my emotions operate, how I react to them, how it has gotten me in trouble in the past, and how listening to them and expressing them has helped me out before.
I think your reply is very well thought out, I wanted to clarify something, mentioned in another comment. A good female recently got divorced because her husband left her for another woman. She remarked the compliment paid by her lover, the same compliments paid by her husband had two different effects. In her lover it "melts her heart", and with her husband it left her feeling cold or sometimes annoyed. Rationally the same approach has been applied, but what tempers the different outcomes are the feelings. That is basically my argument, you are dealing with something irrational. The second point is a marriage consists of more than sex, it consists of raising children, building a home, security etc, why is it women are willing to throw away all that, make themselves and their children poorer because they find out their husband had an affair, not all. Why is the major part of married life jettisoned for an aspect of married life and why cannot women rationalize, if the mojo is not working, we should both be looking for that somewhere else, and keep the major part that is working. I was fascinated in reading the life of princess Diane to note that she knew he was seeing his old girlfriend camilla, he knew she was having affairs, yet they kept the marriage together, this is very common in wealthy families, it was true for Sir James Goldsmith the inspiration for
the Terence Stamp character in the movie Wall Street (with Michael Douglas). Why is it that these highly regarded people can figure this out. I believe it comes down to one thing, women see cheating or affairs as an attack on their security, and they make the calculated decision to get the money by divorcing and to hell with what it does to kids. The fact is divorce lowers the living standards of women and children and causes much more emotional harm than an affair, but the fear is if they don't get the money now it will be spent by the other woman. That is the ultimate selfishness.
It sounds more like you are actually talking about how people prioritize their values in the context of marriage.
In high powered, political, or extremely wealthy marriages many values are placed on monetary gains or desired levels of power. In some of these arrangements that you talk about, sure, the husband has his dalliances and either the wife does so as well or she uses it as leverage against him in order to get what she wants, basically bartering her silence of his act, not acceptance, for financial or politcal gain.
Is that a value that you really want to teach to children?
In regards to a woman throwing a marriage away and lowering their living standards as well as the child's, a) you'll need to come up with some real data on that as in many cases the living standards are already poor, and b) this excludes any ability the wife has of taking care of herself and possibly providing a better home and living situation and quality of life than when she was married.
In a way, the expression of your ideas on this promotes old standards that dictate that marriage is strictly about raising a family and gaining some sort of financial security. How does this include married couples that don't want children? Or married couples where the wife is the bread winner and the husband stays at home with the kids? Or how the majority of marriages has both partners working to support their quality of life, making each of them dependent on the other, what then? Many spouses call for a divorce from cheating spouses because what they value most in the relationship has been broken. Whatever drove that spouse to cheat is still not so simple as one of them having a change in feeling about the other. Its an affect that occurs over time.
I don't see wealthy families, on the whole, as being good role models of what a healthy marriage and family should be. In truth, I find them quite dysfunctional, often emotionally handicapped as a result of having to see the dysfunctional models of marriage and interpersonal relationships that their parents displayed.
A change in feelings about someone is a symptom, not the root cause. Without addressing the root cause then no amount of treating the symptom with fix the problem. Seeing marriage as a financial deal when your partner sees it as an emotional journey will result in issues.
There is literally hundreds of studies on the effect of divorce on children here is one oparagraph from a well quoted study
Another way to examine this issue is illustrated by findings of Mavis Hetherington (1993). Hetherington, like many others, finds these average differences, but she also looked at some of her measures and examined the degree to which children in divorced and intact families had more severe problems. On a measure of behavioral problems, Hetherington (1993) reports that 90% of adolescent boys and girls in intact families were within the normal range on problems and 10% had serious problems that we would generally require some type of professional help. The percentages for divorced families were 74% of the boys and 66% of the girls in the normal range and 26% of the boys and 34% of the girls were in the problematic range.
here is the link
http://parenting247.org/article.cfm?ContentID=646
You are so determined to make the affair the make or break you are unwilling to recognize that divorce is worse than an affair...
Your comments about wealthy families completely misses the point, because these people have money the wife does not feel her security is threatened. And yes the level of father -child mother child is higher (a determining factor) in boys behavior in intact families. I see divorce as the evil( except in abuse cases). You see the affair.
In truth, after reading that report, there is a huge discrepancy in what you are saying and what the report shows from its findings.
I do agree that children do suffer from the divorce, and that suffering varies by how the parents handle that divorce and life after it with their children. That doesn't automatically mean that a dysfunctional marriage is more suitable for raising children in.
I actually did like the report. I appreciate that Dr. Hughes defines that as a group, children of divorced marriages or more likely to have issues requiring proffessional help, but it wasn't left at whether the marriage was intact or not. The factors listed are factors that have to deal with the well being of the children and can be found as concerns in both married and divorced couples.
Once again, based on the model that you are saying should be acceptable, that a husband has every right to cheat on his wife, or vice versa, if their is a loss of sexual desire or a change in "feelings", that it should have no affect on the marriage or the child. Based on the items listed as causes of emotional issues in children, a cheating spouse can in fact contribute to all of that and still create an unhealthy environment to raise the child despite still being married.
1) Parental Loss - True, this is initially thought of as being strictly in the side of divorced parents, however, this doesn't just mean a parent that isn't physically there. Dad can be home at the usual times and still not be emotionally or physically available to the kids. I'm not saying its a definite in terms of a cheating spouse having no care or concern for the children, but even non-cheating spouses can emotionally "check-out" leaving children in much the same state, and once again being a poor role model for what a father/mother should be for their children. I know and understand this one from experience, and have known many with a similar experience.
2) Economic Loss - Yes, two have a better chance of providing financial security that one, but economic loss does not affect only the divorced. Finances have always been and will always be a point of contention in many marriages. However, Hughes states that there is no sound basis for dire or secure financial situations being directly affective of a child's well being. Yes, more money does provide, or allow for, more opportunities to raise a child well, but that still is not a rock solid indicator that the child will be balanced or emotionally healthy. Yes, it does help, but its no guarantee.
3) More Life Stress - So the marriage is stressed as it is because one partner is not fulfilled and the other no longer seems to care. How is cheating on your spouse supposed to ease that tension? There may be an initial lightening of the mood, but eventually the affair will be discovered, or the stress will increase because the actual problem is not addressed but continually avoided. In some cases, divorced couples make better parents because they no longer have to deal with whatever issue there was that could not be resolved between them and can now actually devote more energy into being good parents. I'm not saying this is status quo either, but a stressful marriage situation is still a bad model for a child to base their ideas of relationships on.
4) Lack of Parental Confidence - This is usually my bottom line on what really defines if a child will be raised well balanced. Yes, divorced parents do have a diminished capacity in some ways to raise their children. It may be less time from the partner that decided to move out and not keep the children. It may be the additional stress of the parent that does keep the children as they try to provide a lifestyle that is as close to what the child was accustomed to as possible. But being married or being divorced does not automatically define a person as being a good or bad parent. According to the report its those parenting skills that play a major role in the child's development. Once again, those skills aren't automatically endowed in the married couples and stripped away from the divorced couples. I will concede that just because a spouse cheats doesn't equate to them being a bad parent, however, part of a parent's duty and responsibility is to provide a good role model to their children. So once again, how does having an extra-marital affair equate to that?
5) Conflict Between Parents - In a way, the bulk of your arguement seems to be based on married couples not having any conflicts, just changes in "feelings" that should justify taking actions that are against what a marriage is about (and that is assuming it is a monogamous marriage and the spouse doing the cheating has not discussed that course of action with their partner and are, in effect, lying to them), and that divorced couples are just wrong for doing so if children are involved.
So two people who are better being divorced and provide better parenting for their children are still worse than two people who are unhappily married and cheating on each other and making that the example of what is in store for these children in the future? Yes, I know it isn't so cut and dry. Many marriages end very messily, and many of those have a parent that pretty much leaves the picture completely. I understand that. I still don't agree that staying in a marriage that isn't working just for the sake of the children is right. In many ways this can be more damaging to the child as they identify with one parent or the other and recieve the message of either being self-indulgent and never caring for your spouse, or that it is your place to accept the situation and stick with it despite how completely miserable you are. Once again, how is that good parenting? How is that being responsible to your children's total well being?
Yes, divorce is bad for kids. But not all. Marriage is good for kids, but not all. Condoning having extramarital affairs to find fulfillment of some sort so as to keep a marriage together? Its illogical reasoning. The very act of having the affair is more likely to bring about divorce. Having a frank, open, and honest discussion with your spouse about what you are planning to do is totally different from not telling her anything. Even if she says that if you do have the affair she will file for divorce, its no different then if you went ahead and did it without her consent. You're still right back where you started with a marriage that will eventually end in divorce because of a bad choice.
I find your reasoning circular and very frustrating, I present facts you present assertions and opinions.
You assume that someone having a discreet affair makes the whole marriage dysfunctional. NOT TRUE.
It simply means one ASPECT is not working. It comes down to you wanting to fit everything into your view that
And in fact someone who seeks like Jackson to chose another path rather than beating a dead horse and pressuring his wife to do things the way he likes and she is not responding is wrong. I think he is right and did the logical thing.
He stop pressuring his wife and she doesn't have to deal with it..
You may find it circular, but the fact is that the article you posted as reference, and I'm sure that there is always more to be found, states even within itself that their findings aren't very solid proof that divorce is responsible for raising children that will need professional help in the future.
I'll concede that the odds are raised that a child of divorced parents has a higher likelihood of having some major issues, but its not simply because of the divorce.
Here is where I'm finding fault in your logic. You are asserting that a "discreet" affair is better than getting a divorce, for the sake of the children. Aside from the negative role model that presents for the child, this is still an affair that is being hidden from the wife. In no way is she being informed about it. In no way is she giving consent about it. Why, if going out and having an affair is such a good thing in a marriage where one partner is no longer interested in sex, is the wife not informed of that decision? You proffer that she should be fine so long as there is security in terms of finances. Why lie to your spouse?
My point here is that regardless of how discreet this is, the cheating spouse is still doing so out of some fear of the wife finding out. If the wife is informed and gives consent, then by all means, go on your marry way and have fun.
I'm not, nor have I ever said that its better to continually demand something of someone who has no interest in it. However, total absence of interest when there was no initial problem before is the sign of a problem.
Jackson never made any mention of him trying to do anything to maintain a healthy sexual relationship with his wife. He was evasive to questions, except for when he was critiquing how bad his wife was in bed, and never even gave a verbal answer when asked if therapy ever became involved. Not once did he say that his wife lost interest, only going from her being a bad lay to never having sex. Nowhere does he state that he even attempted to let her know what he likes.
And yet, he is doing, as you put it, the "logical" thing and stepping out behind his wife's back. He is taking every single measure he can think of to make sure he isn't caught. If he is so against divorce for the kids then this course of action makes no sense. There is no logic to it.
You've looked up information on divorce, and I agree with the findings on the paper you linked;
"The overall results of these studies suggest that while children from divorced families may, on average, experience more major psychological and behavioral problems than children in intact families, there are more similarities than differences."
In other words, the reasons behind why these children need help are found in both marriages and divorces. Divorce can compound these issues, but more often than not the divorce is the result of an affair being discovered.
Just a quick look on Google has brought up a number of articles about how damaging an affair is to a child, even if the affair is never found out!
While I am not in agreement to the source for this, this bit from a court brief encapsulates what studies are finding in marriages with one spouse who conducts extra-marital affairs:
"2. The Psychological Well-Being of Children Demands
A Stable, Faithful Parental Relationship.
The importance of parental fidelity to the psychological well-being of
children cannot be overestimated. Therapists and sociologists are finding that
children suffer from their parents' extra-marital affairs, even when these
affairs are successfully hidden from the children.
While an affair is taking place children sense that the parent is
expending emotional energy outside the family, the specialists say. As a
result, the children may become anxious or frightened, or they may sense
rejection and feel they have done something wrong. Moreover, experts found,
such children are prone to have affairs themselves when they marry. The
assumption has been that unless a marriage was in jeopardy, a discreet affair
had little if any impact on a child. But increasing clinical evidence and a
recent study suggest that subtle changes in an adulterous parent's behavior can
unsettle children regardless of whether the truth leaks out and even if the
children are too young to understand."
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/narth.txt
So, I ask once again, how is having an affair good for the child when it will still cause emotional and psychological trauma even if it isn't ever brought out to see the light of day? If the main objective is to do what is best for the child then having an affair isn't the way.
Once again, I'm not debating about the merit of forcing someone to do something they have no wish to. If every step has been taken and tried to get the marriage back to a completely healthy place and it has all failed then the best advice is still to end it. Having an affair and staying around for any reason whatsoever, be it for the kids or to support the wife, will still hurt the one that is supposedly being protected or cared for or given the best chance by not getting divorced.
Get consent from your spouse to go out and have fun? Thats a whole other ballgame, although even then you'll still need to be very keen on how your child is actually doing, because they will still pick up on something not being right.
Bottom line, cheating does not help out marriages, at least not in this country. I did see one article about it keeping marriages healthy in Spain, but that was only so long as they were short flings.
The children are affected, regardless of how secretive it is.
Yes, divorce is bad for kids. One surefire way to get divorced is to cheat on your wife. Most women don't like it. You can ask yourself till the cows come home why we don't agree with you that sex is separate from love. It won't change the way someone feels.
So, if you know that your wife would be hurt and would want a divorce if you cheat, then when you cheat, you are causing the divorce you want to avoid!!!!
Furthermore, if you're in a sexless marriage and you're both running around having affairs, sooner or later, one of you might fall in love with someone else. Once again, you could end up divorced. Remember, usually when women cheat, they are unhappy with the marriage and more open to leaving it.
A thought about the studies on divorce - it's easy to get divorced nowadays. So I think we can assume that most of the intact families were happily married. They were probably NOT having affairs. You need a study that compares kids of divorced families with kids of parents who were cheating because they no longer wanted to have sex together.
By the way, Princess Diana did end up divorcing Charles. It is not the middle ages anymore and even women married to royalty don't have to accept cheating.
Just for the record the Queen told Charles and Diane to divorce and Diane dDID NOT want a divorce it had little to do with cheating but with media coverage see below from wikipedia
In December 1995, the Queen asked Charles and Diana for "an early divorce," as a direct result of Diana's Panorama interview.[27] This followed shortly after Diana's accusation that Tiggy Legge-Bourke had aborted Charles's child, after which Legge-Bourke instructed Peter Carter-Ruck to demand an apology.[27] Two days before this story broke, Diana's secretary Patrick Jephson resigned, later writing Diana had "exulted in accusing Legge-Bourke of having had an abortion".[28]
On 20 December 1995, Buckingham Palace publicly announced the Queen had sent letters to Charles and Diana advising them to divorce. The Queen's move was backed by the Prime Minister and by senior Privy Councillors, and, according to the BBC, was decided after two weeks of talks.[29] Prince Charles immediately agreed with the suggestion.
Some believe it was effectively an arranged marriage. He was years older then her, differed in his interests and beliefs, dominated by his mother and by all accounts was in love with his current wife from the very beginning. Its a wonder they even had children.
Diana stated that one of the reasons for the breakdown of the marriage was because of Charles' relationship with Camilla Parker-Bowles. Even so, Diana did not want to actually divorce.
SHE DIDN'T CARE ABOUT CHEATING SHE HAD SECURITY BECAUSE SHE WAS MARRIED INTO ONE OF RICHEST FAMILIES IN THE WORLD
I just read a bit of the actual Vanity Fair article. My, my, my...."times must be hard all over" if they've started scraping the bucket for writers. Wow..... So, this journalist who isn't actually removing herself from the piece she is writing is actually looking for someone to fit a description and dismisses all the ones who are EXACTLY what a sensible person would get if you go looking for confused, affair seeking people.
I love this part: "We agreed, among other things, that monogamy is an unreasonable expectation, and that while others should be free to pursue their dull, suburban ideals, they shouldn’t impose their prudish views on the rest of us." Ok, so instead of, I don't know, just NOT GETTING MARRIED, this guy chooses to potentially take someone else down into his private little world of confusion. I would say that if you're going to marry someone, then make damn sure they're not one of those people who are trying to "impose their prudish views on the rest of us."
I can tell you one thing. I am so thankful that I live by my rules and I know that I like men and I like interesting, funny, dynamic, sexy sorts and therefore, marriage -which I tried once - isn't for me. I came into this world alone and I will leave it alone. Sure, it makes my "dating pool" smaller because there's no way I'd "mow another woman's lawn" but I am free to have sex with whomever I want. I am free to do whatever I want and I know that if anyone "gets hurt" it will be me because I have made a particular choice - I won't be taking someone else down with me. I often hear people say, "you know no one's perfect" and that makes me laugh. Why? Because it is an excuse that people use when they don't want to take responsibility for their own actions and thoughts. It is usually said in the presence of someone who has chosen to live by their own rules. Most people are scared to do that. They live by how they appear to others - forgetting the fact that no one else is in their head and no one can truly judge them. They have internalised the voices of others. The statement above from the article is a classic example. It is confused: So, if a person doesn't believe in monogamy, then why get married at all? Often a person seeking an affair would rather take the lazy route then do the inward reflection it would take to grow out of their immaturity and make no mistake, willfully hurting others by one's actions and using excuses for doing so IS childish behaviour.
Also, it goes without saying in the article that the ratio of men to women is going to be 9 to1. I'm surprised it's that low. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.....Guys, a piece of advice: If you're looking for sex online, you are most likely (a) talking to a spambot, (b) a gay man who wants to jerk off to photos of your piece (c) other random men or (d) housewife sorts who are just as lost and self-loathing as you.
The journalist also said she was flattered by the attention. Huh? How desperate do you gotta be to enjoy the attention of a bunch of skanks?
I like the use of the word "classy" by the journalist as well. I suppose "classy" meaning the lower classes.
Yes, the more I think about it, the more appalled I am by the journalist. She lied to the guys and strung them along so she could write about them. That must be against some kind of code of ethics. Not to mention having a virtual affair with one of the subjects of her story.
Plus, she didn't interview a big group of guys to find out who uses Ashley Madison. She interviewed three guys she found attractive. That really tells us nothing about what is going on at Ashley Madison.
What is Vanity Fair thinking?
Sensationalistic journalism sales. When was the last time that you truly saw a completely objective bit of journalism? Its pretty hard to find, and all of the editors know that sex, affairs, and violence gets magazines off the stand.
Sadly, this means that people of the herd mentality find some nonsense piece of rationalization to continue to do as they wish without care or regard of others.
It sucks.
Osomerset: If you're looking to get married again then consider this: when you meet someone who “does it for you” then keep them. Often, men will get married because they are so filled with the expectation of others that they create a world of “the woman I’d marry and the one I’d screw.” Never settle.
If you divide women – and I’m not saying that you do – into “virgins and whores” then you will set yourself up for confusion when your wife isn’t what you thought she’d be. Also, affairs never solve anything. The fella in this article – the one who won’t even ask his wife for what he wants sexually – is a classic example of a man putting his wife on a pedestal (which is the same place he most likely keeps his mother, asexual, pure and the mother of his children) will most likely lose everything that he says he wants to keep. He will hurt his wife. He will hurt his children who won’t understand and he will hurt himself and it is all preventable.
No, this man and any other needs to gather strength and not hide behind excuses. If you create the life you want and believe in the things that YOU want in your life, that is what you will have. If you marry someone who isn’t into any imaginative sex, then that person isn’t going to change by magic.
I’m writing this after reading two paragraphs and reading your comment and I will go back and read the rest of the article but I won’t be coming back. It is difficult not to feel sorry for so many clueless and lost people. Why can’t people just be truthful with each other and not be so cowardly?
I feel sorry for that man’s wife. She will find out and this man only has himself to blame because HE didn’t bother to speak to the person with whom he chose to spend the rest of his life.
People are strange.
Once upon a time I was married. I cheated with my wife's best friend. Worst mistake I've ever made. I was insecure, immature, abusive (in all ways!) and self-centered. I was so guilt ridden I even considered doing away with myself. I hated myself more than anyone could've hated me. I thank God and a wonderful non-denominational church that came to my rescue. I joined AA to alleviate my abusive ways, for anger control. They did wonders! Today I'm single but would like to get married again someday. I feel that, no, I know that I can make a marriage work this time. I am ready to commit all the way. I hope I get a second chance.
All I gotta say is no matter what religion or moral system you like to go by..anything from Judeo Chistian, Hindu, Buddhist..or just even plain old Street Smarts..one rule seems to never disappear..which is "Payback's a b*tch"..usually times ten...
So, let her keep believing she's right...one day she'll smell the sh*t she thinks is genius. (and handling just a smell, could be a light punishment)
Everyone else is right, it is lazy on both parts of girly and husband. She is not a very good researcher.
Wow! I just read the original article. Berliet is a narrow-minded, self-righteous b***h.
On top of that, she actually has a cyber affair with Jackson, including cyber sex and explicit photos of herself. That is so far beyond the call of duty that it must be against journalistic ethics. Stringing him along for a few weeks was not necessary to her story about what kind of man uses Ashley Madison. It sounds like Berliet just wanted him.
There is a danger when people consider themselves liberal but are actually very intolerant. It makes it easy to treat other people badly. Berliet is shocked(!) that Jackson's wife considers porn cheating. I don't agree, but it is a fairly common view shared by some religious leaders. After all, Jackson married his wife, he must have known her values and maybe even shares them.
Apparently Jackson's wife also doesn't move her hips right and uses her teeth during fellatio. Berliet has no compassion for the woman. The wife has committed the ultimate sin of being uptight and not wanting to have sex with her husband. Berliet is not a good enough journalist to wonder if this has anything to do with the way her husband has treated her in bed.
Nor does Berliet wonder if Jackson may have chosen his wife for her purity before marriage. Maybe he should be a little more patient with his wife's inexperience and inhibitions. Maybe he even gives his wife mixed signals about her sexual desires and is more comfortable being sexual with someone else. Wondering if Jackson wanted a pure wife would be a reasonable question; he chose Berliet because her "skin is the color of purity."
Certainly Berliet should be a little more tolerant of a woman with different religious views. Instead Berliet seems to see Jackson's wife as unreasonable and therefore okay to hurt.
Berliet is not a good enough human being to feel sorry for the woman and suggest her husband look into sex therapy for the two of them (although it does keep her from actually sleeping with the man - if he had said he'd tried counseling, would she have had an affair?).
Berliet is also self-righteous about cheating. She insults anyone who actually is monogamous: "Those who remain faithful to their partners—whether out of religious conviction, prudence, lack of libido, or supernatural willpower—" She suggests (falsely) that most people who try to be monogamous fail.
She puts forward the odd idea that an affair doesn't have to hurt anybody, based on the fact, that, you know, she had a two-year affair with a married man and it didn't cause any problems. Which is why she is unable to truly open her mind on this question and think about the women being cheated on.
Berliet takes her own behavior way too lightly - what if Jackson's wife who thinks porn is cheating discovers her husband's explicit photos of Berliet and their e-mails? Isn't she going to be heartbroken? What if Jackson's conscience gets to him and he tells his wife about Berliet? Being truly open-minded means you can see everyone's viewpoint.
I am reading all of these comments about how Jackson's wife withholds sex or is a prude or doesn't DO IT right, this of course is according to Jackson and a (I refuse to use the term Journalist) writer who has admitted to having a cyber affair with the man. Jackson you are not the victem here, you said the vows foresaking ALL OTHERS, your word is your bond if you no longer feel the same move on and let her do the same the truth is you want your freadom but don't want to give her back hers.
I have done a huge amount of research into adultery. The facts are 24% if married men cheat. That makes 76% faithful. I don't think those statistics justify making adultery acceptable. Furthermore, if G O D saw adultery as so disruptive and harmful to civilized society that he made it a sin right up there with murder, well, it would behoove people to heed the warning.
At any rate, Jackson's comments about his wife are pretty much the standard excuse givven by MM who cheat. This is their justificaton for not making the effort to make their marriage better, not making the effort to improve the mquality of their marriage. Instead these men follow the dictates of their biological impulse which is towards QUANTITY of offspriong, whereas the female biological impulse is towards QUALITY of offspring. If you really ask men MM who cheat why they did it you will hear them say, " I couldn't resist." And they will continue the A for these reasons as well. In reality these men lack restraint and self disapline. That's all there is to it. Some men can keep their zipper closed, and some will not. It has NOTHING to do with the wife. It's male impulses left unchecked. A thinkingman can control his impulses.
With women they often engage in Affairs to escape. When you research the women, they are unhappy in their marriage. Unlike the men, once exposed they don't straighten up and do fall in love with their Affair Partners. These women are e greatly disappointed when their feelings towards their Affair Partner are not reciprocated and when the A is exposed are thrown under the bus, so to speak. .
Audulery hurts everyone involved. Jackson's coments are cold hearted. He is a coward. If he is that unhappy in the marriage he should have left rather than expose his UNKNOWING wife to possible STDS.
Adultery happens more often than not because they have tried and the mojo is not working... this idea that everything can be fixed ignores the idea that some peoples have divergent views on things and will not compromise. If the wife refuses to perform certain acts, or at certain times of the month is not interested whats the solution. He's a coward, weak,nonsense no she's letting down the marriage.
Some women view sex as a route to security and forget that when they take the sex away they are threatening their security. It is interesting to note that when women go through divorces they become very sexually available....
"If the wife refuses to perform certain acts, or at certain times of the month is not interested whats the solution."
The solution is to enjoy other acts and have sex when the wife is interested. Marriage is about two people loving each other and enjoying each other's bodies. It is not about purchasing a woman who has to do whatever you want whenever you want it.
I have done a huge amount of research into adultery and the facts are, 24% of married men cheat. So, that makes 76% faithful.
I remember reading that most of the people on the Ashley Madison site are married men and have wondered if they just have a lot of guys who would like to cheat, not so many couples getting together. I've even wondered if the guys get pulled into hooking up with prostitutes or golddiggers.
The idea that most people fail at monogamy is a self-fulfilling myth. If you don't want to be monogamous, fine, but don't run around saying it's unnatural or impossible just to justify your actions. The more accurate studies show that married people are faithful.
One recent University of Chicago survey found that 78% of men and 85% of women had NEVER had sex with someone other than their spouse while married. The percentage who've cheated goes up with age, but they are still in the minority.
http://www.oprah.com/article/relationships/couples/relationships_cheat_b...
I'm amazed that a journalist would be ready to believe a stranger who wants to get in her pants when he says his wife is a prude. She doesn't even seem to have asked him what exactly his wife doesn't want to do. Nor does she wonder if the wife's problem might have anything to do with her husband, his lovemaking, etc.
In any case, helping a guy cheat on his wife is not going to keep their marriage together.
My vote is on lazy.
There is a vast difference between couples that choose to have open relationships and couples who cheat.
More often than not, open relationships are built upon honesty and trust, and those two factors are extremely neccesary as the relationships usuall involve at least 3 people.
However, in the vast majority of attempted monogamous coupling, there is some sort of inbred idea in many that so long as you focus on having a significant other and so long as you get married then everything else will work out.
Notice that the focus is on end results, not on the process, or path, that it took to get there. If people started putting more focus on BEING in a relationship, and BEING married as opposed to GETTING into either then there would be a pretty big change in marital statistics with a down-turn in illicit affairs and divorces.
